Interview: Renato Canova

by Scott Douglas

If Renato Canova coached just one runner currently under his direction, he would be a success, and a seemingly busy one at that. So it's staggering to consider even a short list of his athletes: steeplechase world record holder Saif Saaeed Shaheen, known as Stephen Cherono before he switched citizenship from Kenya to Qatar; New York City and Boston Marathon winner Rodgers Rop; 26:30 10,000m runner Nicholas Kemboi; Ahmad Hassan Abdullah, the former Albert Chepkurui, bronze medalist at the World Half-Marathon and long-course World Cross Country Championships; and the second-fastest 3,000-meter runner of 2004, James Kwalia, to name just a few.

Canova is also the official coach of the Qatari national track team, which is comprised of former Kenyans, Burundians and other East Africans who have relinquished their native citizenship to run for the oil-rich Gulf state. When we spoke in Iten, Kenya, in December, Canova and a few members of the Qatari team had recently arrived for an extended training camp. The rest of the team arrived by early January, and further raised Iten's already solid claim of being the training site of choice for many of the world's best distance runners.

A few caveats: Although Canova speaks excellent English, Italian is his first language, so below there will be a few oddities to American readers, such as "fantasy" where we might say "imagination." Also, like most in Kenyan running circles, when speaking about the world record holder in the steeplechase, Canova randomly switches between "Stephen Cherono" and "Saif Saaeed Shaheen." Finally, the interview was conducted in late December, so when, for example, Canova says "last year," he means 2003.

MensRacing.com: There's a lot of curiosity in the U.S. about the whole Qatari thing. How does one become the coach of the Qatari national team? You're from Italy. How did that happen?
Renato Canova: I was already the coach of Stephen Cherono, and before was the coach of his brother, [1999 steeplechase World Champion] Christopher Kosgei, so it was a family affair. When Cherono won the [2003] World Championships, in Qatar nobody knew who was the coach. Stephen introduced me to the federation, telling them, 'This is my coach.' So the official of the federation wanted it official, that I become the coach of Qatar. It was a long situation, because I never look at it for money, but I wanted the opportunity to have a strategy for developing the country, not only to be the coach of Shaheen.

I coach maybe 30 Kenyans of a top level. I was told when I become official coach of Qatar, I cannot continue to coach athletes from other countries. So one of the parts of my negotiations was I told them every country can ask me what I can do, but not to tell me what I must not do. This is my choice — if they wanted me, I continue with my others. The problem is the personal relationship you have with the athletes — it's not something like a soccer team, where they change all the time. So I had a relation with Kenyan athletes, Ugandan athletes, and I could not cut these because of Qatar.

Also, there was something official between Qatar and Kenya for having some other athletes in this way. So every change was with full agreement. Every change was with a letter, no objection.

It was very strange. Many times with the Kenyan federation, we asked for names that they didn't know! Because you know, in Kenya, there is not a master list of athletes attached to some club. In Kenya, you are free — you are here, you run faster, and nobody knows. I ask for these guys to change citizenship. I give to the federation their names. The federation never heard of them, but the president of the Qatar federation is a member of IAAF, so there were relations at the top level. In many cases we had long, long procedures for changing.

But anyway, the athletes that are here in Kenya...In Qatar, it is not possible to train for long distance. Qatar is a small country, 600,000 people. And [it's at] sea level. For five months, the weather is exactly the contrary of what we need. We had athletes there for four months — it was 48, 50 degrees [Celsius, more than 100 degrees Fahrenheit], 95% humidity, so they were completely out of shape. So the solution is for these guys to stay in Kenya, to train in Kenya. We are looking for a permanent camp during winter, then [cross country] World Championships, and then maybe again here in April and May. After that, we stay in St. Moritz [Switzerland] for a long time.

The big difference between the Qatar federation and an African federation is that Qatar, having the money, can support any type of training project. So we stay, for example, for two months in St. Moritz, and the Qatar federation pays everything. When I coach Kenyans, we have to find some solution, a private solution, and everyone has to pay part of the expense.

So what really is important for me in this situation is to have financial backers so we can have the full support. That is something that normally with African runners is very difficult to find. In this case, I could see that when the Africans stay long time with me, they can improve very much. The same Africans that already before were with me, but with the normal system, the normal programs, is not the same. For example, the case of Nicholas Kemboi last year [who ran 26:30 for 10,000m to take more than a minute and a half off his PR]. Already I was his coach for three years. But it was always the same — 13:26, 28:something, staying maybe some time one week here, one week in Italy. When we were together last year for practically 55 days, almost two months in Switzerland, I discovered something that I didn't know about him. I was sure that he was very, very slow, and my idea was for to move him to the marathon. After one and a half months of preparation, of going uphill and a lot of things, he was able running one time 200 meters in 22.7. So I discovered he was fast, no? But still, 50 days before [Kemboi ran 26:30], five people running 13:42 [for 5,000m], in the last lap, he was number five. So I ask of him, 'Nicholas, you are faster. Why are you last in the group on the last lap?' 'No,' he says, 'I am fast only if I am in front.' I said, 'No, if you are fast, you are fast. The problem is to change your mind, to understand what you have to do.'

The problem of training the African is a problem of education. It's not only to give a program. You must speak very much. Mentally, they have a lot of limits, limits that start from their culture. And also their attitude. In Kenya, for example, nobody uses short recovery in training because, due to altitude, it is difficult, no? Normally in Kenya, there were never many big runners [who competed in the] 1,500. We have big runners at 800 and long distance, but 1,500 in the history, no. If you think back 20 years, when Britain had [Sebastian] Coe, [Steve] Cram, all these people, the best Kenyans were two and three seconds back, and already were the best in 5[K] and 10[K] and other specialties, steeple especially. So it was something due to some, not mistake, it's not accurate to speak of mistake...I think an athlete, when he's capable of running fast, cannot do many mistakes, so you must know what he does in training, knowing his attitude for sure. If you are able to look at the talent of everyone, you can have an idea where with his talent this athlete can arrive and what already was able to do. Okay, you are already running 13:00, so it's not wrong, your training. But I think that with your talent, you can run 12:45. So explain your training. I don't want to change your training. I want to add what you don't do. Because, for example, if I speak about Sergiy Lebid, I know what he normally does, coming from the Russian tradition. So, for improving, he has to do something like Africans that normally he doesn't do. And Africans have to do something that they don't do.

In any case, what the Kenyans have, and the Europeans and Americans at the moment don't have, is, in their very simple type of training, the most important thing for middle distance. Long distance — not long, long, long. Maybe from 20 to 40 minutes very, very, very fast. Very fast. So everyone in this country has a threshold level higher than in Europe. Why Europeans are now good in marathon, for example, but no more in 5 and 10k? We have [Stefano] Baldini and others, but... Because in marathon, the system of training is the most important mean of success, while in 5 and 10k it's not as important as the power of the engine. So Europeans and also, I think, Americans are no more able to work and build themselves at high intensity. Americans use a lot of intervals or a lot of long runs, slowly. But I don't know how many use, for example, a long middle [distance] run very fast. I don't know.

You cannot assemble these two situations. You can become more faster, you can become more resistant, but the resistance is not endurance, it's different. So, for running faster 5 and 10, you must run faster in training, long. You can do 50 x 400 meters with short recovery, and you are no good in 10,000. You can run three hours, and you are no good in marathon.

Here, when we start with these guys, very young and or not, already they have this mental attitude, and we're able to build their body, their physiology; that's the most important thing. So, if you are already running all the time 40 minutes fast, maybe in one year, you can become a good specialist in half-marathon. And in two or three years, go to marathon.

But at the moment, I think the situation, the technical situation for the marathon is very, very, very back[wards]. It's very back[wards]. My idea is that it's not difficult to run under 2:04 for a lot of runners that are here, but the training is not correct. Also, because it's not possible to control [them]. We can control track here, because track is track. A distance is a distance. But when you speak about marathon running, it is really difficult, because the story of Kenya is this one: You have an athlete that runs in a camp who nobody knows. The leader of the camp pushes with the manager, 'Hey, I have someone running very fast with me, you can arrange some competitions for him.' Most of the time, he is no good. But sometimes, he is good. So he arrives in Europe for a marathon, nobody pays his ticket, but the manager can have a special agreement with the organizer: 'Okay, if this athlete runs under 2:13, you pay for ticket. If he runs sub 2:12, you pay blah blah blah.' So this athlete, completely unknown, is able to come to Europe and run 2:09:30, winning a marathon. So you think, for running 2:09:30, he knows something about training.

So, what happens? This guy, for example, wins $20,000, $25,000, that many times the organizer pays six months later. Arrives to Kenya two days after the competition, thinking, 'What I have to do with the $20,000? What is my business?' Normal business here is to build a house. Thirty houses, not any apartment is rented. It's a wonderful business — no more money, 30 houses, no apartments rented. So he wants to build a house, but he is not the builder. He hires someone. Every day he is there for a long time, to see what the builder is making, and he forgets to train, completely, for maybe two months. Then starts again, running, not training, because there is a big difference between running and training. He arrives at the beginning of September, for example, and the manager calls him, 'Hey, I was able to arrange for you a marathon, 8th of October, you can have $5,000 for appearance, for starting.' 'Yes, I'm ready! Sure! No problem!' The manager says, 'If you run slower than 2:13, a cut of 50%.' This one goes, not ready, already ran 2:09 before, but now not ready, maybe runs 2:17. So out of prize money, half appearance, comes back with $2,500 only. Very bad for him, very bad for manager. Maybe the manager doesn't want to work again with this guy.

You think he has to know the reason why he was able to run 2:09. A European, an American, when you've run faster, you know what you did for running fast, so you understand if you are eight minutes slower there is something that is not the same. Here, no. Why? Because before when you were at the camp you were not the best, so you follow the camp. After this you go to the manager and tell the manager, 'I ran well. So I go home. And I build a camp in my home, so I can have four, five, eight younger runners from the village.' But before he was just one involved in the camp. Now he is the number one. So what happens? Without control over courses, because they change the courses, you never know if you are faster. I can write every type of program. But the program is following your sensations, so tell me how you feel. They will say, 'I feel okay.' But what does this mean? You feel okay running 3:30 [per kilometer] or you feel okay running 3:10? To feel okay is good, but you must know whether you feel okay running fast or slow.

Also, to train a Kenyan on tarmac is practically impossible. They don't want that solution. But the marathon, where is the marathon? It's on tarmac, no? So the compromise is, okay, we go one time maybe every 10 days on tarmac, but one time is enough for controlling the situation, for developing some kind of pace. When I go, for example, five times 5K at marathon pace with 1K interval, if I have my courses well controlled, it's possible to understand.

So it's another type of job, to train an African instead of a European. I never train an American, but I think it is like a European.

MR: I wanted to ask what you think the genetic differences are. I mean, just walking around Iten, it's very easy to see from the general body type that it's very different from walking around Europe or the US So if you could comment both on the outward appearance as well as internally, in terms of what might be differences.
RC: The difference, you are speaking about the difference in training or in attitude?

MR: Neither. Difference in genetic makeup.
RC: The first thing is, personally, I don't think there are big differences genetically. I don't know. I don't think so. There was a group of scientists who came here in 1995, spent something like one and a half months testing many, many younger people, comparing them to Scandinavians. The muscle biopsies, there are not big differences. Those come later.

I think that the most important difference is not the genetic. Some differences because they live in high altitude. But, for example, when after three months a Kenyan is at sea level...I make normally blood tests with the guys here. Here there is a big difference, but when in Europe after maybe three months, they have the same values as European people. Hemoglobin goes up. Because normally here, it's lower. They have a level of hemoglobin very, very low here. Big runners with hemoglobin of 10.5 here, but their red cells are very, very big. So no big numbers, but big cells. And hematocrit is maybe sometimes under 42. I remember Christopher Kosgei winning in Sevilla was 39-point-something. When they stay in Europe three months, their values change and become like Europeans. So it's not something genetic. It's something connected with living here.

I think also Europeans, if stay three, four, six months in altitude, can have the same type of results. I never had a European staying at altitude for such a long time. But, for example, with Baldini, every year goes to altitude three or four times. After many years, you have an adaptation, a different adaptation — his value of blood changes not like the first time. Now it's different — now he's almost like an African. So I think it's not genetic, the difference, but it's due to your way of life.

MR: So when you walk around Iten and you see the body structure of the average Iten resident, that doesn't strike you as different from when you walk around Italy?
RC: No, I don't think so. You can have some advantage, sure, especially in taking on oxygen from the atmosphere, because here, 2,500 [meters, or 8,000 feet], the percent is very, very low, so you have an advantage when you go where it's full of oxygen. For sure. But something that is not genetic can change in short time for practically every person. One of the situations that you can change with an African, but also with a European, if you are talented for long distance, is that after three, four months of training, you can have about 20%, sometimes 25% general volume of your blood, you can increase that. But not for everyone is possible, this situation. Because you understand blood is inside a container. If the container has good elasticity and possibility to maintain that increase, you can improve. But if your tissues are not elastic and you cannot accommodate this volume, in this situation, for you, it's worse — you are not talented.

MR: That's true, I'm not.
RC: It may be that you see this guy running and think you look like him, but inside, not talented. But it's not a situation for just Africans. It's a situation for everyone. So this is part of individual differences, not racial differences, because a lot of Africans are not talented.

MR: So if Americans and Europeans not doing as well as Africans is largely a matter of training, what training are the Americans and Europeans not doing that they need to do to be able to compete?
RC: The first thing is that now we have a really big problem in our countries with recruitment of young runners. Because there is one thing that you absolutely cannot skip, and this is to prepare your body for endurance. This is an enzymatic problem, and it's very different when you run, not with training, but naturally, when you are very, very young, like happened many, many years ago in America, in Europe. Because [1988 Olympic 10,000m silver medalist Salvatore] Antibo, [1987 world steeplechase champion Francesco] Panetta ran maybe 15 kilometers a day at home in the south of Italy. Now, nobody runs.

I think you need maybe 10 years for building your body. So when you are European or an American now who has a passion for running, and the passion starts at 15, 16 years old, in many cases, he has to do from 15 to 25 years [old] the basic work for building his body. And one of the big problems is that nobody has the patience to do this, because after two or three years they want already to go into very specific training, but it is not possible to get good results, because there is not a good base. So we want to build a house from the third floor. It's not possible. This is a problem that is very difficult to solve. Athletes want to be competitive, and everyone knows that to be competitive, if you run faster, you are more competitive than running slower. But for running faster without destroying yourself, for using the intervals for example, it's like the cherry on the cake — it's not the cake, it's the cherry on the cake. But if you have not the cake, where you put the cherry? This is the problem. So Europeans and Americans now are starting to recognize the difference between the cake and the cherry.

The advice is, at first, they have to build themselves with the correct mentality. You can improve continuously in your aerobic level for 10, 12 years. We are speaking about aerobic resistance; that is, general resistance. After this, you must go in a specific direction. So when you run 10,000 meters very fast, your type of aerobic resistance is no more resistance, it's endurance. Resistance is low intensity. Endurance is high specific intensity. But for arriving there you must prepare your body before.

For example, for people like Shaheen, this year is the first year that I try to experiment with two trainings in the morning very close, only two hours, two and a half hours between, like a special block of the day, resting completely in the afternoon. For example, one week ago we went at 5:30 in the morning for 22.4 kilometers at an average of 3:18 [per kilometer]. After two and a half hours, we went for climbing, 10 times 400 meters very fast. The day after he ran very easy. So, we use these modulations. I don't know where we go with this — it's an experiment.

The evolution of specific endurance is to put together very, very, very intense workouts with more recovery after. So the more we are able to put together workouts, the more specific endurance is able to build. I saw this type of training the first time maybe 20 years ago from Said Aouita, so I am not an inventor of something. Aouita was in Italy for a long time for training in the Italian national center, and for five days, every day he have a very, very, very fast training of intervals. And he also took something from other athletes. For example, I saw him running three times 1,200 meters, with after each 150 meters about 19 seconds, with between maybe 50 meters slow, and with maybe six minutes between the sets. This is with the final 1,200 in about 3:03, 3:05. But this work was already work from [Olympic 400m and 800m champion Alberto] Juantorena from 1976. The problem is not to invent something, but to use what you know and assemble it in relation to the quality of the athletes. The modulation is important for everyone, but the system of modulating everything is individual, so is important to understand who you are.

Normally, nobody is able to invent anything new. Big scientists were never able to explain, because you can explain only what you can control, and normally scientists are not able to advise top athletes. So normally new things are from some coach that does not know anything about training, but is crazy, or an athlete who doesn't know much himself but is crazy, is motivated to do something very strange, like 23 kilometers climbing from Fluorspar. [Note: Canova is referring to a 23-kilometer continuous uphill run in Fluorspar, Kenya, that 1996 Boston Marathon champion Moses Tanui often did.] You had good results, and this becomes a possibility. Not a system, but a possibility.

You must manage in different ways with different athletes. For example, having 30 athletes here, I have maybe when we go on track 10 or 15 different programs, and not everyone running together. This is another difference between us and the Kenyan groups, because you know in Kenya you have the training of the camp. What is the training of the camp? Training of the camp is nothing. Training of the camp may be general training always, but never maybe specific training. For marathon runners in the camp, there is maybe a marathon runner running in March and another running in May, training together, so one of two can be in shape, but not the other. There is very much to do here to educate people in training.

So for Europeans, I think that in the past, they had a mentality not for very long run, but for intervals, very short recovery. The English were specialists in this. But the difference is that when they could do this many years ago, already their body was prepared without knowing. If you see the career of Sebastian Coe, his father Peter says now that he doesn't believe in long run. That is not true, because Sebastian ran all his life very long. If you see the career of these people, normally also the big runners of 800, 1,500 meters, come from long distance. [2003 World 800m Champion Andre] Bucher was, for example, in Switzerland, the best junior in 10,000 meters, 5,000 meters, steeple and reigning in junior cross country, then becomes a specialist in 1,500, then after 1,500, 800. [Steve] Cram won European Championships at 3,000 meters before going to mile and 1,500, and after mile and 1,500, although he was very slow, not fast, still able to run 1:42.88 [for 800 meters]. Why? Because you can build not your speed, but your speed endurance when you have a very, very big aerobic base, aerobic background, that now these people don't have. This is the problem.

Another important thing: What is a program? I write, for example, three months of a program. At the end, there is the final goal. When I arrive at the end, if I compare what I wrote before and what really the athletes did, I find more than 50% difference. Because if I write the program 100 days before the competition, after 10 days I am not at day number 10 of 100, I am at day number zero of 90. So every day we have to check what the training can produce, and you are always at a start of your preparation. We cannot know every time exactly what will happen, because there are many, many situations out of control. For example, yesterday Stephen [Cherono] had a small problem; now for two days, we have to change. When a coach is at the place, it's different, because you can control every type of evolution, good or bad.

MR: I want to go back to something you said earlier about a lack of success in marathons being due to not doing these 30- to 40-minute runs.
RC: For Americans you are speaking?

MR: Yes. At what level effort would those be? And would those be at the end of a long run? When would those be?
RC: I know that in America, you had 20 years ago almost 200 athletes under 2:20. And two years ago, you had 20 or something like this. So the first problem, I'm sure, is a problem of mentality. Same with Great Britain. Great Britain had in the past Ian Thompson, before him Ron Hill. Last year, the best marathon runner in England was a woman. So there is something wrong in this case, no? You see the evolution of long running in all Western countries. A lot of people run, never young people, and always run maybe for health. For example, in Italy, the percentage of masters running grows two or three percent every year. Maybe in 10 years we have 80 percent of runners that are over 40!

MR: Pretty much the same thing in the US
RC: But is not possible to think about their competing. I think that the system in marathon of many years ago was not correct. Because in marathon, the philosophy is very simple, the final goal. If I want an athlete to run fast, first I have to decide what is fast for him — maybe 2:10, maybe 2:08, maybe 2:06. I decide the speed of the marathon — maybe 3:10 [per kilometer], 3:08, 3:00. I have to reduce the consumption of fuel at that speed. This is very simple. How is possible to improve this type of specific resistance? Not running three hours or four hours at 4:00 per kilometer. Because in this case, you use only fatty acids. Not running just 40 or 50 minutes when you run very fast, because in this case, you continue to use the glycolytic system, and we must reduce the percentage of sugars, of carbohydrates at the same speed for lasting more. This is the final goal.

So, for example, if I bring an athlete to run four times 5,000 meters in 15:00, recovering one kilometer in 3:30, what is better for marathon is not when he is able to run four times in 14:45, but when he's able to run four times in 15:00 with less recovery, or five times. I have to maintain the speed for building this type of marathon; at that speed I try to last more. So the specificity of the marathon is a specificity of extension. Too many people think they can run a faster marathon by running faster in short distance. That is a big mistake, because when you go, for example, running 20 times 400 meters, you use the glycolytic system, not the other system.

So, I am here. [At this point, Canova gestured as if he had an imaginary cup in each hand.] I have one cup full of sugar, one cup full of fat, and, in the middle, one cup empty, which is my tank. I have to build a mix, taking from here [the sugar cup] and from here [the fat cup]. So what happens? If I am an athlete coming from 5,000 meters very fast, I am like a Formula One car — I don't need to have care about consumption of fuel. In this case, my philosophy is very clear — for running faster, you must increase your power. In Formula One, for example, you can use your engine only for one lap for pole position, so you work in another way — you have no care for fuel consumption. You go into the lactic area, and the more you push for using your engine, the more your engine adapts to burning carbohydrate, glycogen. In this case, when you go slow — slow, for this athlete, a 13:00 athlete, is 3:10 [per kilometer], 3:12 — for running at that level you use too much sugar. You go a little bit slower, 3:20 maybe, you use only fat, because you are not able to create, to build your mix. This is the big problem.

So when you run very, very long, but never fast, you go for a general type of training, but this is basic training. Long, long run at low level can only produce improvement in short distance, not in long distance. When Panetta wanted to move to marathon, he went for long run, but never fast. So the longest run he did was a full marathon in training at 3:32 [per kilometer] average. That is good for women, for sure, but he wanted to compete with the idea of running 2:10. I remember he had the manager Gianni Demadona. I put in an envelope a paper to Gianni. I told him, 'Open this paper after the race. There is the kilometer where Francesco slows.' I wrote 30. I was wrong — it was 27. But what happened? He had a personal record of 13:15 5,000 meters from five years before. That year in Zurich, he ran 13:06, because there was more aerobic support for high intensity. But he had not the work for changing his system for the marathon.

Baldini, 33 years old, this year for the first time went for three hours. I remember with Rodgers Rop in Amsterdam in October, at 35, 36, 37 kilometers was so easy. Looking at him, I thought, 'Why he doesn't try to go?' [Robert] Cheboror, running like an elephant, pulls away, runs 2:06:23. Rodgers, almost 2:14. At the end, I said, 'Rodgers, explain how is possible? What happened?' I learn he cut always the long distance. I wrote 2:30; he run two hours. I ask, 'Why?' He say, 'Because when I won Boston and New York, I never went more than two hours.' 'Okay, before running Boston, how long was your longest run?' 'One hour ten.' So I explain again, if you go two times 1:45 and two times two hours, and before you went only to 1:20, this long run is a stimulus to your body. But when you already are a marathoner for two or three years, and you continue with the same system, this is not a stimulus, so you cannot be ready. So problem was, you are prepared for 35 kilometers, you have fuel for 35 kilometers, because there is a mistake in training.

You can improve many years if you have motivation, but you must find what can yet stimulate your body. And if you continue with the same type of training, no more stimulus. So one of the big mistakes of people, in America I think, is that when you are able to follow one type of training, and this training produce good results, you continue. No, this is the time to change, not to continue! Because if you continue, you cannot stimulate your body. The overall concept can stay the same, but you must change something — volume or intensity, more modulation, something different, because we need stimulus.

Sometimes also mentally, with an athlete like Stephen Cherono. The problem for lasting long time...maybe 10 years he can improve; he is still very young. You cannot continue in the same event always. Okay, he could not go to the Olympics, so for four years, he has that goal. But really, world champion, world record holder, after winning everything, I think he can continue winning everything in steeple for four or five years, is not a big problem. So what is the stimulus? Stimulus must be for something different. So if I am Stephen, I look at 5,000, I look this year at cross, not my event, but I want to try something different. I want to face [Kenenisa] Bekele, like the first time he faced [Hicham] El Guerrouj in Ostrava. [Note: Cherono beat El Guerrouj in that race, running his PR of 12:48.]

I tell you a story, because it's important to understand the difference in mentality between top, top, top, top athlete and a good champion that has not this mentality. He was the best in the world in the steeple — he was second in 2002, but with the ban of [Brahim] Boulami, he was number one. So in Ostrava, the organizer wanted to have him in steeple, and he could have a very high appearance to go there in steeple. In March we were here, we spoke together for training. I told him, 'Stephen, I need a control in the improvement of your specific endurance. Because this year without Boulami, could be that you are not able to improve your personal best in steeple. You are assured the number one in the world. So to understand what is happening, I need you to run a 5,000.' Stephen say, 'Okay, I go run a 5,000, but I don't want a normal 5,000. I want a 5,000 with Bekele, or [Haile] Gebrselassie, or El Guerrouj. Gebrselassie in July is too late. Bekele, I don't know where he runs. El Guerrouj, already we know is running Ostrava, so in Ostrava I want to run 5,000.' So he spoke with Ricky Simms, the manager, and Ricky asks me, 'Why 5,000 and not steeple? Because 5,000, no money, no appearance, and I have to fight to get him in the race.' We arrive in Ostrava, and again I meet Ricky, and again he talks about the reason of our choice, because Stephen was not Qatari yet. Stephen say, 'Ricky, I can have good appearance fee. But today I don't want appearance. I want El Guerrouj.' When you have this mentality, you want to face the best. For him, nothing to lose, because he goes in the field of the other, but to find some stimulus. In the future, maybe two, three years, maybe he runs 10,000. In the most important competition, you go in your event, for sure, but you must find always something in competition and in training.

Because when you do always the same thing, another problem is that, if you continue with the same type of training, is natural, is human, that you try to have a comparison. You go for 10 times 1,000 meters, for example, and the previous year, you go for training five times a week, and you are able to run in training 3:10 for 10 times 1,000m with 1:30 recovery, and in 10,000 meters with this type of training, you have a personal best of 32:00. Next year, you are able to train not five times, but eight times a week, more long run, but in training you continue to go ten times 3:10, nothing change. At the end of this, you run not 32:00, but 31:00, so what changed? The global situation of your training, not the specific. You know that I write on [the letsrun.com message board] sometimes? Every time I see people asking about the volume — how many kilometers, how many kilometers? But is not the most important thing how many kilometers each week. When you run 100 miles per week and then you run 110, and the difference of this ten is nothing because you run every kilometer exactly the same, it seems the mentality of these people is looking at only one parameter. Volume in this case, if you are a marathon runner. Or in other case, intensity. I go for 10 times 400 meters one second faster or something different; nobody looks at the globality of training.

It's not good idea to control every time the same type of workout for understanding your shape. Because a lot of times, you are not able to understand if you are in shape or not. 'Last year, I was in shape and I was able to run blah blah blah. This year, the same, two seconds difference.' What is the big risk is that your training, if it improves, is not something natural, but you try to improve in training to be sure that you are faster than last year. This is a big mistake, a big mistake.

For example, for marathon runners we use always the same test, objective lactate test, same speed in every type of season and every year. We do 6 x 2,000 with Baldini, and we do 6:20, 6:15, 6:10, 6:05, 6:00, 5:55. Throughout the year, you can reduce your level of lactate. That means that, for the same speed, you use less glycogen, so you are able to last more, or you are able to finish very fast if you have more glycogen in your tank. This year, the last test of Stefano, at 5:54 he had 1.8 mmol. We — me and Baldini's coach, Luciano Gigliotti, that was the same coach of Gelindo Bordin winning Olympics in 1988 — were that in condition like Berlin that [Paul] Tergat had, he could run very, very easy one minute faster than Tergat, 2:04. We knew Athens very well because we won World Cup in Athens in '95; the course is always the same. We know what we need in this case. Okay, the final is a little bit going down, but still, he ran 5:30 the last 2,000. So you understand, Vanderlei de Lima, too bad for him, but still, nothing would have changed [if De Lima hadn't been attacked by a spectator] — first Baldini, second Keflezighi. Maybe De Lima 40 seconds better, but result same.

We were sure Stefano was ready from controlling this last test. At the end of the last test, we go for 1,200 meters free. In the test, we use an acoustic rabbit; in the computer, for every speed there is a sound. There is a sound every 25 meters, so on the track, we put one cone every 25 meters, and you run completely even pace. If you change something, the effect of the test is not clear. For example, if you run 6:20 but you go for the first lap in 1:08, too fast, reduce, and then if you go again for the last lap faster, then during the last lap you have a level of lactate higher than at 1:14 [per lap], so you have a false effect. Before Athens, in the last 1,200 meters free, he ran 3:13, having something like 11.7 mmol, so this means he still had a lot of glycogen in his fuel, and we were sure he was ready.

MR: I've seen in your schedules the use of very short hills. Can you talk about the thought behind that?
RC: Yes. Ethiopians went normally for short hills. Not just hills — Gebrselassie went for 60 meters sprint on the track with spikes, twice a week, so he build his speed, and this is one of the big differences between Ethiopians and Kenyans, because the Kenyans never, never use speed. For them, speed is 200 meters, never maximum speed. The idea of Kenyans is always to relax, run relaxed, so maximum speed is something different.

We have very good improvement with these. It's difficult to explain to a marathon runner to go for very short sprints, hilly, with the mentality of sprinting, because many go for maybe 800 meters, but a sprint is a sprint. You must start hungry, like a sprinter, in an explosive way, not taking care for recovery. Because the effect is that we want to recruit the most part of the fibers of every muscle, and the only way for recruiting these is full intensity. Our engine doesn't work like the engine of a car. If I have an engine of a car going for 5,000 revolutions, and 200 kilometers of speed, and I want to go at 100 kilometers of speed, revolution can be 2,000, but the way of working is the same. In our engine, the situation is different. Could be that I have a muscle of 100 fibers. If I go for maximum speed, I use all 100 fibers. If I go five kilometers, I use 20% of these fibers, always the same 20%. If I go a little bit faster, maybe 50, maybe 60, but when I never go for max intensity, I have a big percentage of fibers, maybe 40 percent, that are not activated. So when I need to use these fibers — because I am in the final sprint or because I finish the storage in the other fibers — I need for the last five kilometers, the last two kilometers, I need to take something. These faster fibers are not good for marathoning, but inside there is something I can use. The only way for using these is by doing short sprints.

To explain to a marathon runner that if he goes two times a week for a shorter sprint is good for improving endurance or resistance is difficult, but it's true.

MR: So this is like 60 meters uphill?
RC: Ten to 15 seconds without any care of recovery. But also good gradient. For example, a gradient like that one is good. [Note: At this point, Canova pointed to a very steep hill behind us.] Not only two or three percent. Two or three percent is something different, maybe good if you are an 800-meter runner, so you can build your specific strengths.

I don't use weights normally with my athletes. Sometimes we use a ramp of 15% gradient, maybe 30 meters; this 30 meters takes you 10 seconds. It is like using half a squat, but you're using a more dynamic weight because you are running; the weight is the weight of your body and is specific.

Working on the hills we can have a lot of variations. I remember once [on the letsrun.com message board], I made an example, hills of 400 meters. I hear back, 'I have not hills of 400 meters, only 300 meters. What am I to do?' Use a fantasy. I want to tell you something that happened 30 years. Bud Winter was the coach of [1968 Olympic 200m champ] Tommie Smith. And I was a young coach in 1974, and we had a meeting with Bud Winter. The coach explained that Smith goes for strength on the hill for 87 yards. We were all wondering, 'Why? What is 87 yards? Maybe 80 meters. This takes him maybe 10, 11 seconds. Okay, why this? What is it for?' Two hours of discussion. Then we ask the coach, 'What is the reason for this? Why 87 yards?' He said, 'Because at 88, the downhill starts.'

So many times we want to be too scientific in everything. You use what you have. This guy had a hill that was 87 yards. Percy Cerutty used the dunes because he had the dunes. When we write about the system that has produced something for an athlete, and people without a fantasy tries to follow, no. If I am in the forest and I want to use some weight, and I find some tree, 20, 25, 30 kilos, I cut it, I use it, but it's not that this is the best way that others should copy. So I think we must have more adaptations in these cases. I think this type of flexibility is one of the most important things for a coach.

And my impression is that normally American coaches have no flexibility. It's like in Italy — this is the system, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. When you have a group, maybe one needs to rest today, one needs to rest another day. You must know, what is the need of every runner at every moment. You have good athletes, and I think many of them are very stimulated. But not always training harder is training better. This is important. Because you must have very much care about recovering, because when you train hard for a period, you must recover so that when you have the super-compensation, you can start again another period from a higher level. This is the secret of training. But it may be that some time only two days of tough work when you are already tired can destroy you, and for two months you are not able to do what you should do. This is probably what happens to your athletes, because in Olympics, nobody was good. I think that in approaching Olympics with this mentality of always improving [aggressiveness] in training, training, training, so no recovery, you were completely exhausted. Is a problem of balance in this case.

MR: You talked about how Baldini was ready to run 2:04. Who do you see as people who are going to be the big talents over the next few years, other than the obvious like [Kenenisa] Bekele?
RC: I don't want to speak about El Guerrouj because everybody knows him from this last year. But at the moment, there are two athletes in all middle distance that are completely different from the others, and that is Bekele and Stephen Cherono. Very young. I think they can dominate the world for a long time, because they're young and motivated very much. That is very important. Bekele, one week after winning everything, is already in training. Stephen, the same. I gave him two weeks of rest, and he told me, 'Why I have to rest? One day without training, I become crazy.' So there is a very, very, very big motivation.

After these, there are many, many young runners who can change completely some event. I think, for example, 10,000 meters is slack. I told you before, within 60 days, Nicholas Kemboi was able to run 26:30 coming from 28:19. I don't think that in 55 days you can be at the top. Not possible, not possible. So if he has a true season, can be stronger, can maybe run 26:10. Bekele can run 26:00. So the real level can be different, because 10,000 meters, normally only Brussels really has the competition. So the real value compared to 5,000 has yet to be achieved. It's possible to run faster.

Ethiopians have at the moment a professional mentality. I told you Bekele, but not just Bekele — after two weeks, already the focus is on training. For Kenyans, many times the focus is often on business.

I think, for talent, very, very strong is [two-time world junior champion] Augustine Choge. Choge can become one that can have the goal, maybe, why not, of running very close to 12:30. Another incredible talent but not professional in his mentality is Cornelius Chirchir. Cornelius is another that really could beat the world record at 1,500 meters. Another Kenyan talent is Gregory Konchellah in 800 meters. Can beat the world record in one year. Put Konchellah with the mind of Wilfred Bungei, and you have 1:40 for sure.

About the marathon, I think with the new system...people yet young, Kenyans especially, coming from short distance, but not long time in short distance, so still full of energies. Because when you move to the marathon at 32, 33 years old because you are no more able to run fast on the track, it's possible to run a good marathon, but not your best marathon. Is not something you can do because you are old, is something you can do because you are strong. So now people who are young and still fresh of energy...If you can control Kenyans, I'm sure maybe five, eight people can run a marathon in under 2:04. Felix Limo at Rotterdam was something incredible. Because in Rotterdam it really was not possible to run, the race with the wind maybe eight or nine meters per second into the wind. If the same conditions as Tergat in Berlin, could have run one minute better than Tergat.

I am looking for some of my athletes for the world record in half-marathon this year. I have two or three who can do this. For example, Nicholas Kemboi really can run under 59 minutes, because with 27:20, if you are prepared, you can run under 59 minutes. To move to marathon when you are not yet strong is easy. When you are already very fast in shorter distances, is difficult. Because when you become a marathon runner, you must be a full marathon runner. [World half-marathon champion] Paul Kosgei will be here January 15 to become a marathoner. But he talks about, 'I run marathon, then 10,000 meters, then marathon, then 10,000 meters.' No. Evans Rutto showed this situation very well — when you go to the marathon, you go.

(Interview conducted December 26, 2004, and posted April 2, 2005.)